Hi Allison,
I'm reform and don't understand why Orthodox women don't read Torah in temple. If you have not heard Torah sung by a woman you have only heard half of the Torah!! The most important thing is that Torah is READ by someone with a love for it. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. It is something I don't understand.
Thanks,
Chip
Hi Chip,
Thanks for your question. It's a fair one; it's a good one; and it's one that bothered me for years. From outside of Orthodoxy looking in, it appears that women are held back because of this issue - treated unequally and unfairly. What exactly is the harm in a woman chanting Torah in front of men?
I'll tell you one thing from the start - the question your asking is full of emotion and passion. Issues like inequality and love are very important, sensitive issues to a human being.
The answer I'm going to respond with, though, will be full of reason and calculation, but not much outward emotion. Because of that, it might not feel terribly satisfying to you. Nonetheless, I came to these conclusions through much soul-searching and thought, and I hope that I can convey the reasoning to you in a logical way.
As a woman who used to read from the Torah, but chose to give it up, this question is very personal to me. Not only did I read from the Torah at my bat mitzvah, I was part of a post b'nei mitzvah youth group at my Conservative synangogue where I regularly read from the Torah as well.
It was something that I enjoyed doing, but it was never a "religious" experience. None of the Judaism that I practiced in my Conservative upbringing was spiritually moving. We'd come to services and just start singing whatever song the crowd was up to, but there was no feeling of connecting to God (Who I didn't necessarily even believe in then) when I was in temple.
As you may have read on my site, an existential crisis that I experienced as a child launched me on an eight-year long spiritual quest. I wasn't getting spirituality from the Judaism that I knew, but an Orthodox Hebrew High teacher who I met when I was fifteen years old was getting meaning from the Judaism he practiced, so I decided to try to understand why that was.
I began learning more about Orthodox Judaism and spending more time with Orthodox Jews. I saw how much my teacher loved and respected his wife. I saw how basically all the Orthodox women I met were not afraid to speak up or voice their opinions. On the contrary, all the "meek" and "subservient" women I was expecting to encounter just weren't materializing.
I learned that the rabbis, who I was raised to think were "misogynistic," did things like voluntarily end polygamy even though the Torah permits it, and gave women the idea (1500 years ago) that not being "satisfied" by their husbands is grounds for divorce.
I also learned that according to traditional Judaism, spirituality comes about not by sitting on a far off mountain meditating, but by living in the world and elevating one's everyday actions through the practice of halacha (Jewish law).
Part of what made my teacher's observance meaningful was that he was fully committed to halacha and did not live the "pick and choose Judaism" I had been raised with. I realized that up until that point, I only observed the parts of my religion that didn't inconvenience me. I decided that I wanted to start striving for full committment in my observance.
Now the system of halacha is both complicated and complex. People spend years trying to understand how it works, but I will do my best to explain the basics in a few lines: There is one God Who created the world and actively cares about the goings-on of it. This God created man with a purpose to fulfill, and explained that purpose in the Torah. This is the Written Law, and it is meant to be understood in conjunction with the Oral Law, which was eventually written down in what is called the Talmud.
In the Torah we are commanded to listen to our Jewish leaders, who are the rabbis - to trust what they say. In the Oral law, the rabbis are given tools to be able to take verses from the Torah and derive new lessons from them. The Oral law also contains laws of its own, as well as principles for applying old concepts to new ideas. (For example, there were no cars at Mt. Sinai, but if we understand how a car works, we can apply principles that we received on Mt. Sinai to determine if cars are permitted to be driven on the Sabbath or not.)
So now we come to the law that you asked about itself. There are several reason why women don't read from the Torah. There have been entire books written trying to understand the how's and why's of these issues, but to state it VERY simply, it comes down to three concerns: modesty, women not being obligated in time-bound commandments, and the fact that it was not historically the practice for women to read from the Torah.
Now, I'm sure none of those reasons feel particularly compelling to you (to the extent that I've explained them - maybe in a later post I'll have the opportunity to discuss these issues in more detail), and to be honest, it's not the technical explanations that are most compelling to me either.
Really, the most important thing for me is that I've come to respect the system that the law is a part of. How I came to respect this system is not something that I can just convey with some words over a computer screen. If you really want to understand what I'm talking about, you'll have to experience it for yourself - spend time with observant Jews, immerse yourself in learning, get to know rabbis with great Jewish knowledge and exemplary character.
I hope you don't take this answer as cop-out or conclude that I must have been brainwashed that I could trust in a system so whole-heartedly. It's just that there are some things in life that need to be personally experienced and studied in order to be understood. What I can tell you is that I was in search of a vehicle with which to connect to God and upon delving into Orthodox Jewish learning, practice, and society I felt that this was the best, truest way to do so.
I know you said that the most important thing for you is to hear the Torah sung by someone who loves it, but for me, the most important thing is to commit myself completely and consistently to a system that I've gotten to know, love, and respect, both intellectually and experiencially. (But don't just take my word for it.)
Sincerely yours,
Allison
awesome explanation!
Posted by Hadassah Sabo Milner on December 28, 2009 at 8:13 pm
thanks!
Posted by Allison on December 28, 2009 at 8:15 pm
The issue of women not being allowed to get an aliyah is due to kavod hatzibbur — that it would be undignified to have a woman read the Torah before the congregation because it would imply that men were not competent to read on their own.
I don’t understand what it has to do with any of the answers you provided — if that were the case, why didn’t the gemara (Megillah 23a) list them instead?
Posted by Skeptic on December 28, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Skeptic, thanks for your comment, but please include a valid email address next time so I can be in touch with you directly. I wanted to find some sources to back up what I was saying before I posted your comment since you’re so convinced that I’m completely wrong.
Of course there’s the issue of kavod hatzibur, but it’s not as simple to understand as you make it seem. According to Rabbi Moshe Meiselmen in his book “Jewish Women, In Jewish Law” (p.141-144) he understands that kavod hatzibur relates to modesty. I also mentioned modesty as it relates to kol isha.
Regarding the issue of time bound mitzvos, please see a recent article by Rabbi Shlomo Riskin http://www.yctorah.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,711/ who believes that this is the main issue for women not having aliyot today.
In regard to my final point about there not being a precedent for such a practice, that is a well-known halachic reason for not starting up something new if it hadn’t been done before as we are taught “Ask your father and he will tell you; your elders – and they will say to you.”
I kept my answer as basic as possible as this site it read by many people with less formal Jewish educational backgrounds. I want everyone to understand what I write as well as feel comfortable while here.
Posted by Allison on December 29, 2009 at 5:17 pm
This was a great article on Halacha and how leading an observant life can lead to better spiritual fulfillment, but I almost feel as if you are dodging the actual question. I read it several times, convinced I had missed the part where you explain WHY women are exempt from positive time-constricted mitzvos, and the laws regarding Kol isha (not to mention the laws of Niddah when it comes to a woman on the Bima), only to be more confused when there was no mention of these things. Orthodoxy holds women in such high esteem and has provided many of the mothers of Feminist thought (Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, etc) that I’m kind of baffled why such a round-about answer was provided.
Posted by KE on December 29, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Hi KE, thanks for your comment. The reason that I stressed the halachic proccess so much is that because it’s what I find most compelling personally – though you are free to be compelled by other answers! I could have gone into each answer more – I mentioned specifically that I wasn’t – because I feel that there’s only so much my readers are going to read and I want to keep them engaged.
Just so you know, I did have kol isha in mind as well as kavod hatzibur when I mentioned modesty. (See my response to Skeptic above.)
Regarding niddah being an issue, from what I’ve seen, it doesn’t appear to be. Please see a response that Rabbi Riskin brings down:
The Gemara rules (Berakhot 22) that a Sefer Torah cannot become impure, and that even people considered ritually impure may read from it. This is the ruling of the Rif, the Rosh, the Shulhan Arukh and the Rama (end of Laws of Keriat Shema.)
The Rama mentions a custom that was prevalent in his country, according to which a woman did not enter a synagogue or gaze at a Sefer Torah during her menstrual period; clearly, this is not our custom.
Posted by Allison on December 30, 2009 at 5:28 pm
It should be noted, that there are many places where Orthodox women can and do read Torah for other women. While still controversial in many Orthodox circles, there have been many halachic opinions that women reading for other women is allowed.
I have found, on the occasions when I go to hear a woman leyn, because it is something so rare and special (at least in the Orthodox world), women do not take this for granted, and imbue their readings with such spirituality. Whereas, sadly, many of the readers in my regular Orthodox shul read as if they can’t wait to get it over with.
I definitely agree that women should not be reading in place of men, or alongside men, but it should be noted that there are, indeed, opportunities for Orthodox women to read Torah, and to listen to other women read Torah, if desired.
Posted by Alisa on January 2, 2010 at 7:29 pm
This was a great article on Halacha and how leading an observant life can lead to better spiritual fulfillment
It is possible that it might, but there isn’t any guarantee that it will. 40 years of davening in a variety of shuls I still spend more time in Conservative where I find it spiritually fulfilling.
I have a number of friends who are FFB who found Orthodoxy to restrictive and went the other route.
For obvious reasons on Shabbos you don’t see Orthodox Jews in Conservative shuls. The point being that I have had discussions with many who label themselves as Orthodox but haven’t been in Conservative or Reform shuls. It is hard to speak authoritatively that way.
I am not denigrating or marginalizing others. Just commenting that you don’t have to be Orthodox to have a spiritual experience.
Posted by Jack on January 3, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Thanks for your comment, Alisa. It is true that in some Orthodox synagogues women read Torah for other women and it is less halachically problematic for a woman to read Torah to another woman than to a man. I’m still a bit uncomfortable with the concept, but I’d like to note that my intention on this site is not to tell anyone else how to live their lives, but rather how I live mine and the conclusions I’ve come to. That being said, my personal feeling about women’s tefillah groups is that they’re attempting to create something (a minyan) that they can never actually be. And so while many parts of a minyan can be technically mimicked, I’m not sure what gets accomplished spiritually in the process (if we define spirituality as fulfilling halacha, rather than being a *nice* feeling a person gets when s/he does something). A man, if he felt like it, once he got married could start covering his hair and uncover it in front of no one but his wife, but no mitzvah would be accomplished by such an act since a man has no mitzvah to cover his hair in front of other women when he’s married.
I understand that some women might find it challenging to find meaning in their roles without their roles including participating in shul the same way men do, but getting back to the idea that I trust in the system itself, my own personal goal is to try to find meaning and purpose in the system since I believe the potential for spirtuality is there for any woman who endeavors to find it.
Posted by Allison on January 3, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Thanks, Allison for a wonderful article. I also leyned in Conservative synagogues from the ages of 13-18, at which time I became frum and stopped. If it’s okay with you, I’d like to add my take on the issue. People seem to take it somewhat offensively when men and women do different things. As you and I can both attest to and that the writer of the letter has correct, is that women can leyn beautifully; no one would deny this. But beauty isn’t the end of the story. Idols can be beautiful artwork– but they’re clearly forbidden. Adulturous relationships can be portrayed as beautiful (think Bridges of Madison County) but they, too are clearly forbidden. So we can’t measure right from wrong based on beauty, and the Torah gives us clarity on these issues. I’m not saying leyning is idolatry or adultery, I’m saying beauty can’t be a determining factor between allowed and not allowed.
Secondly, what I can say personally, is that when I read Torah as an adolescent, I memorized the parsha the night before my reading, I came in front of the community nervous that I would “mess up,” calmed my fears by remembering that just about no one listening knew what it was really supposed to sound like, and ultimately judged my reading by the praise I received from the Rabbi, Cantor, family, friends, and community. I felt superficially important because I had this “skill” that very few in my Conservative synagogue had. But never once in all the times I read did I feel that I was doing this to get close to G-d, to do what I was meant to do in this world, and never once did I actually feel that I accomplished anything spiritually at all. And I definitely never felt fulfilled in any way other than feeding my ego.
But when you look at the foundation of the world from an “Orthodox” perspective, the whole point of life is to get closer to G-d and to improve ourselves as people using the tools He gave us (mitzvos). G-d created us with all of our gifts and He gave us mitzvos with which to accomplish whatever we, as individuals, need to do in this world. Hashem, as our Creator, gives us everything we need, and halachic Judaism gives everyone their specific mitzvos to fulfill their missions on this Earth. It’s not just Men vs. Women. It’s Men, Women, Leviim, Cohanim, Cohanim Gadolim, Kings, daughters of Leviim, daughters of Cohanim… We all have different mitzvos. When we look for others’ mitzvos it’s like doing someone else’s homework for them; it’s enjoyable momentarily because it’s not your own obligation. But at the end of the day fulfillment comes from doing your job and nobody else’s because that’s when you work towards becoming the person G-d created you to become.
I can tell you from experience that I realize more and more each day how my deep, spiritual, fulfillment only comes from doing the mitzvos that G-d specifically gave to me and I appreciate what a Great G-d we have to give us specific instructions on how to achieve individual fulfillment in this world– I see it as a shame when people sneer their nose at that and call it inequality rather than individual love and attention.
Posted by Debi on January 4, 2010 at 5:12 am
Thanks for your comments, Jack. You are certainly entitled to them, though I will respectfully disagree with some of the conclusions you’ve come to, if I may!
You mention that you’ve bounced around to different types of shuls, but didn’t say that you’ve personally lived an Orthodox lifestyle which leads me to believe that you haven’t. I could understand that if you found a Conservative shul with nice singing and a pretty knowledgable, committed, friendly crowd, it could feel more inspiring than a bunch of men at an Orthodox shul who just quickly mumble through a bunch of prayers and go home.
I also totally hear that people could find Orthdoxy to be too restrictuve, but I think the people that feel that way are the ones with were raised in strict settings and were instructed to observe the commandments by rote, with no greater thought or meaning attached. Conversely, when a child has role models (parents, teachers, rabbis) who live a life of mitzvos with joy, meaning, consistency, in my experience such a child becomes an adult who views the observant life stlye the same way with the same joy and meaning.
In terms of finding the Conservative shul spiritually fulfilling, I guess I should clarify what my definition of spirituality is which is most likely is the place where you and I disagree. Spirituality to me is not necessarily that warm, fuzzy feeling you get inside when you’re inspired by a sunset, though, such feelings could arise in a spiritual moment. I personally believe, that as Rav Soleveitchik defines it in “Halachic Man,” that a spiritual experience happens in the pursuit of living a halachic life. That following, what I believe is God’s will, is what brings a person to spirituality. It feels especially nice when a Shabbos, a blessing, or a prayer can come along with that uplifting feeling, but it certainly doesn’t happen all the time.
Posted by Allison on January 4, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Thanks for your comment, Lydia. Synagogue life certainly goes beyond just the service itself. In addition, for most Orthodox Jews, the home is really the center for Jewish life as Shabbos, holidays, kosher, blessings, and everyday education takes place there. That being said, I hear your point. I get that if women were involved in the service the way men are, there would be an added way for them to connect. My feeling though is that just because women aren’t involved the same way that men are doesn’t mean they can’t find other ways to be involved in synagogue/Jewish communal life. There are women’s Rosh Chodesh programs, women’s tehillim groups, women’s voluteering projects, etc. etc. I think it’s up to each individual woman to find a way to feel involved, because I think with enough effort each one can. (In addition, only a handful of men in each synagogue are involved in the Torah reading, prayer leadership part of the service anyway.)
Posted by Allison on January 21, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Hi Rodney, you’re correct that women reading Torah for other women is technically allowed as the modesty, time bound mitzvah issues, and kavod hatzibbur don’t apply. There are still some concerns though, in my opinon, and in the opinion of most Orthodox rabbis today.
In traditional Judaism, the basic goal of life is to achieve closeness to the Almighty (if I had to sum the basic goal of life up in a few words!) The vehicle for achieving that closeness (according to tradtional Jewish thought) is the practice of mitzvos and halacha. The problem with women reading Torah for each other in a group, is that no real mitzvah is happening in the process. When men get together, they form a minyan, so they are able to say blessings before they read the Torah. When women get together – it’s not because there bad in some way, God forbid – but no matter how many women get together, they do not create a minyan. Therefore no blessings are said, therefore no technical mitzvah is done.
Now people have made the “but they get a nice feeling from it” argument to me. And nice feelings are certainly nice. But according to Jewish thought, nice feelings (alone) do not create closeness to God – all they do is create nice feelings. An actual mitzvah accompanied by a nice feeling is the highest level, but there’s still an instrinsic value to performing a mitzvah even if the nice feeling is not there. I’ll give you an example in a less heated scenario than the gender based one we’re presently discussing.
There’s a mitzvah to eat in a Sukkah during the holiday of Sukkot. Men are obligated to, women are allowed to, but most do for many of the Sukkot meals because it’s a nice thing to do. A Sukkah is only considered kosher if the roof (the schach) is laid out a certain way with the leaves/branches that are there (they can’t be too dense or too sparse). Therefore, it’s possible for certain parts of the Sukkah to be kosher and other parts not (if the shach is not laid out evenly throughout). Now on to our example – a person might have a nice feeling sitting in Sukkah with family and friends, eating a festive meal, singing holiday song, etc. etc. but if s/he is not sitting under the right part of the schach – no actual mitzvah is being done. So what women’s Torah reading groups, in a sense are, is a group of women sitting in a Sukkah that they know has a schach that’s not kosher. They can be into the holiday spirit of it all, which can “feel” good, but if the schach they’re sitting under isn’t set up correctly, no actual mitzvah has taken place.
Now just an aside – I would never stop women from creating prayer groups in there own time and space – it’s not my business – everyone is free to live her life as she sees fit . But if we’re in a discussion about the pluses and minuses of such a practice, then this is my take. I certainly appreciate the desire that women have to want to connect. I think it’s beautiful. I just believe that we have to see how the system of connection operates and work within that.
Posted by Allison on January 21, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Alison says “Now people have made the “but they get a nice feeling from it” argument to me.” People need to have those nice feelings about their religion in order for them to feel connected to Judaism which encourages them to do more mitzvas. If people have nice feelings about their religion then their children pick up on it and the parents are role models for their children.
Posted by Lydia on January 21, 2010 at 4:26 pm
I completely agree with you, Lydia. We’re on the same page! Doing mitzvos by rote, with no feeling or inspiration is not the way things should be. However, that does not mean that having nice feelings, without the mitzvos to back the nice feelings up, is the answer. IMO, there needs to be both.
Posted by Allison on January 21, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Hi Allison. I feel that your response was appropriate, unlike some of the critics to this blog might think. The world as we know has very little knowledge about Judaism partly because of Jewish preservation and partly because of Christian theology. Ask the average South African about Jews and they would either not know the word or will have a racist opinion about what a Jew is. This to me has always been a fundamental problem. So I say kol hakavod to you and to anyone who is prepared to enlighten the world about about Judaism and the Jewish world. we must right the wrong of oppressive regimes that sought to victimize and stigmatize the Jews for their own gain.
Posted by Natasha on April 29, 2010 at 2:44 pm