Dear Jew In The City,
Why don't Orthodox women wear pants even though in today's world you can tell women's and men's clothing apart?
Thanks,
Chelsea
Dear Chelsea,
What you're hinting at is one of the reasons why most Orthodox women don't wear pants: kli gever - the prohibition for a woman to dress like a man. (Beged isha is the corresponding prohibition on men dressing like women.) It used to be that pants were only worn by men, in the same way that skirts are only worn by women now, so wearing pants was the equivalent of wearing men's clothing. But you're right that there are certainly pants out there today that are specifically made for women, so kli gever can't be the only reason behind skirting pants.
Besides kli gever, another reason for wearing skirts is modesty. Yes, I know that there are baggy pants out there that are far more modest than skin-tight skirts, to which I will respond that skin-tight skirts do not meet the traditional Jewish definition of modesty either! Now there are some rabbis in the Modern Orthodox community who believe that very baggy pants can meet tznius (modesty) guidelines, though in my personal opinion, the types of pants that women crave are the ones that show off their assets and not the MC Hammer kind.
(As is always the case, I'd just like to remind everyone that I'm not an authority of Jewish law, but rather an observant woman who had many of the questions that make it to this site. So I'll tell you what was explained to me back when I asked this question and what I discovered on my own as a skirts-only gal. But there are other opinions out there more to the right of me and more to the left. For more specific information and textual sources, please consult your LOR - local Orthodox rabbi.)
While skirts are not mentioned in the Talmud in its discussions of modesty, Jewish women, as a community (at a certain point in time) decided to wear them exclusively in an effort to be more modest. So while a woman could put on very baggy, made-for-women-only pants, there's still the issue of skirts being a community norm. Although there are a range of styles, fashions, and lengths of skirts that can be worn (to allow for individuality and personal style) there is something to be said for dressing as part of one's community.
Back in Egypt (we're talking The Ten Commandments era-Egypt), one of the things that the Jewish people were praised for was for keeping their own style of dress. So while there seems to be a range of opinions as to whether or not skirts are a must from a law-based perspective, there is certainly something positive about them from a community-bonding perspective.
Now on to my personal story: I started wearing only skirts as an experiment right before I got to college. I wasn't convinced that they were mandatory by all opinions, but I did want to associate myself with other observant Jews (and I didn't find super-baggy pants particularly appealing), so I gave skirt-wearing a go. I realized, after a while, that wearing skirts in public (I did and still do wear pants in front of other women and family members in private) was a good personal reminder about who I was, what I believed in, and what I wanted to represent to the rest of the world.
It was actually a non-Jewish dorm neighbor in college, though, that made me realize how nice it was to associate myself with my community in an outward way. It was towards the beginning of my freshman year, and this neighbor shared an interesting story with me and a fellow Orthodox friend. He said that when he first got to campus, he was eager to make friends, so in an attempt to find like-minded people, he put on (and kept wearing) a t-shirt with his favorite band on it. He struck up a conversation with a classmate along the way based on the shirt, but the conversation didn't end up leading to a friendship since he and the classmate didn't have much more in common than the band. And then he said to us, "You people, with your yarmulkes and skirts, you can find each other so easily and automatically know that you've got so much in common. You're so lucky to be a part of a community like that."
I think all too often we Jews see our laws and customs as restrictive and limiting, so it was nice to be reminded, especially by someone from the outside looking in, as to how fortunate we are to have them.
All the best,
Allison
Thanks Allison,
Timely message and something to think about. It is about a community of fellowship.
3 important lessons in unity and community. And, in not being impulsive in action.
Posted by Dale Legan on June 11, 2009 at 8:40 pm
I wear wide-legged pants with lonnnngg tops definitely covering the goods. As an older woman, I have no worry about attracting the wrong kind of attention at this point, and I’ve always disliked skirts unless they’re floor-length.
Posted by Avivah Rivkah on June 14, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Very interesting! A question was asked of one of my Orthodox Jewish woman students once “Why don’t you wear jeans?” She stated “You conduct yourself differently depending on what you are wearing.” My Orthodox Jewish woman student turned the question to me: ” Michelle, don’t you think your mannersims in teaching would be different if you were wearing jeans versus dressing professionally (which I always did)?” I have to admit she is right!
Posted by Michelle Rimmer on September 17, 2009 at 10:18 am
Very well put…I too feel like you mention that I conduct myself differently, am more self-aware of how I’m presenting myself to the world and who I want to be (all in a good way) when wearing skirts. Along the way I’ve struggled w/how I’m conforming to a certain interpretation of Orthodoxy and that I don’t think nowadays pants are halachically unacceptable…but realized the bottom line is that for me, wearing skirts is a good thing.
Posted by mirel tzirel on October 19, 2009 at 12:26 pm
I am still going through my life stages. Going from Coed Flag Football, Wrestling, and Roller Derby to Conservative then Orthodox Judaism is like leaping over a mountain. I don’t like wearing skirts all of the time. I actually hate it. My Orthodox Rabbi laughed a little when I told him that was the single hardest part my Orthodox Conversion. So keeping Kosher, Not working on Shabbat, living in the Eruv, Separate seating, More Torah Study, and more… not a Problem. No pants, problem!
I don’t agree with wearing pants to Shul. I think that in Shul (Especially on Shabbat) people should dress their best. But in my everyday life (outside of work and Shul)
I despise skirts, short or long.
You can’t do cartwheels in a skirt! Plus you look a little like a floozy on a bike or roller skates. If you fall and a breeze hits the world sees your goods!
I don’t wear tight jeans or pants. I think that looks disgusting and shows men of all faiths that you are easy. I think a comfortable pair of pants with a shirt/blouse/sweater large enough to cover your tush if fine to me. I like covering up.
In an effort to be a more observant Jew I bought 2 skirts. I don’t like them, but I bought them. I feel like ridiculous in them.
Ironically, on the other had I feel like females in yarmulkes in Shul are cross dressers. TETO.
Posted by Shelly on December 22, 2010 at 2:48 am
Thanks for your comment, Shelly. You can get around the “showing everything off when you play sports” issue by wearing a pair of pants under the skirt. They even make skirts with pants underneath them http://miraclothes.com/exerskirt.aspx !
It’s true that baggy pants with a long shirt over them will keep you looking modest, but the skirt has become a Jewish woman’s uniform, so the majority of Orthodox rabbis feel that even if baggy pants are available wearing a skirt (even over pants) is fulfilling something beyond modesty.
Posted by Allison on December 22, 2010 at 5:10 am
According to either Das Moshe or Das Yehudis, the bottom half of the torso has to be hidden, not simply covered, hidden and skirts are the only way of hiding this part of the body. Pants reveal the shape of your legs, hence do not qualify as a modest garment to hide your lower half of your torso.
Posted by Bas Melech on December 23, 2011 at 5:30 am
@Bas Melech: Your torso ends at your waist, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Unless you’re wearing a hoop skirt, some part of the form of your leg is going to show when the fabric of your skirt is up against your legs. It’s the same in baggy pants. Where the pant legs meet is generally not directly covering where your legs meet, and the outline of your leg is only partially seen when the fabric of the pants is up against your leg (like a skirt).
Personally, I’ve seen plenty of women in jeans and sweaters looking way more modest than some women in their pencil skirts and skin-tight tops, stilettos and a sheital down to their waist.
The rules of tzniut are vague because the point is the spirit of the law. It also changes with general society(!) In the 60′s and 70′s there were plenty of frum Beis Yaakov girls that wore skirts above their knees, just not the tiny micro-minis that were in at the time.
The Modern Orthodox rabbis who have given their stamp of approval for women wearing pants understand that the rules aren’t “4 inches below the knee” and “elbows covered with all activity.” It’s “Look in the mirror, and think about what a normal, healthy male might think when he sees you.” If it’s “Hubba hubba,” you might want to rethink your outfit. If it’s, “Oh, there goes a perfectly normal looking member of society,” you’re on the right track. It’s the difference between looking attract*ive* and attract*ing*. You don’t have to hide your figure in a potato sack. You can wear make-up, and pretty colors. Your collarbone might show, but keep the cleavage under wraps. You can be in pants or skirts, as long as you’re not giving the guy behind you a show as you walk down the street. High-heels, flats, sheital, scarf, your own hair, short sleeves, long sleeves…whatever it is, just keep it classy and not trashy. That’s the bottom line.
Why do Orthodox women only wear skirts? My personal opinion is that when society made that transition from women only wearing skirts to women wearing slacks in public, the Orthodox rabbis of the time had to make a decision about what side of the argument they fall on (and since it was scandalous at the time for women to be seen in pants, but of course there were those women who gave society the finger and did it anyway, opening the door for the rest of the women) they chose the more conservative side. And there it stayed.
Just FYI, if you would like to see a good example of women in pants looking modest, watch the Israeli TV show “Srugim.”
Posted by BatYam on January 6, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Thanks for your comments Bas Melech and Bat Yam. I believe what Bas Melech meant to say is that according to das yehudis the *separation* between the legs must be hidden. This is not mentioned in the Gemara, but something extra women took on later as an extra measure of modesty.
Bat Yam, you are correct that not every skirt that covers the knee is a modest one. Loose, baggy pants are certainly more modest than a skin tight skirt. The idea, however is to wear a modest skirt (though it can show some shape and not be a potato skirt). Also – as I mentioned, skirts have become a type of uniform to observant Jewish women and without wearing one, it’s often hard to pick another frum woman out.
Posted by Allison on January 6, 2012 at 8:51 pm